Love, Hate, and Marriage Equality

May 9, 2012

in While Perched upon my Soapbox

Same Sex Marriage

©Kelly Sajonia

Each time I publish a post in the category While Perched Upon My Soapbox I find myself writing a prelude to the piece. It usually starts out with me making an excuse for the impending rant and how few of these type of posts I actually publish. I do write so few in this category and I do try to keep the focus of my blog on being free, happy, and uninhibited in life. Today is no different. But today the theme of Naked Girl in a Dress is being  expanded to all people. Even if some people live their lives in a way that others disagree with or find sinful. This post might lead some people to stop reading Naked Girl in a Dress, cause others to pray for my soul, and a certain percentage to cheer me on for my public statement. But I am willing to take what comes my way as a result of sharing my thoughts on a controversial topic:

Love and Hate

Those two words don’t belong in the same sentence, but unfortunately people who are haters have inserted themselves in the business of love when it relates to marriage equality. I do understand there are those who don’t hate people who are gay, but pray for their conversion to heterosexuality. Many have the best of intentions in their thoughts, however misguided some of us might find it. Regardless of the motivations, far too many people are impeding equality in this country.

For those who shout the loudest against marriage equality, not one has made a compelling argument as to what terrible thing will happen if people of the same gender are allowed to marry.  Here’s my response to what I have heard as reasons:

  • It isn’t our business to decide for others how or who they choose to love.
  • Jesus was consistently all-inclusive in his actions and words. Those who speak out as a result of religious beliefs are doing so based upon their interpretation of the Bible, which is subjective.
  • If marriage is only for procreation then heterosexual unions that are childless by choice should not be allowed under these rules. And contraceptives should be banned. Oh wait, there are a lot of people working on that. Never mind.
  • “It’s wrong” isn’t an intelligent answer.

I had the privilege to shoot a same-sex wedding in D.C. a few weeks ago. I witnessed a love that was inspiring to me and everyone in attendance. There are times you can simply feel the love between two people and this beautiful couple was a great example. With so many unhappy, dysfunctional marriages, I can’t imagine anyone having the right to interfere when true love exists and two people want to make a lifetime, legally-recognized, commitment to each other as these brides did a few weeks ago.

I did not write this post to incite a riot or have my own little group of haters. I am writing it to open dialogue in my small corner of the internet. My hope is there can be respectful disagreement that can possibly lead to greater understanding. Even if it is just one person who becomes a little more open-minded as a result of my effort, I will feel like I accomplished something today.

Lesbian Wedding

©Kelly Sajonia

Are you for or against marriage equality?

Why?

Note: No comment below will be allowed that is hateful or disrespectful from either side.

{ 58 comments… read them below or add one }

Danielle May 9, 2012 at 1:31 pm

Beautifully said! I simply do not understand people who are against same sex marriage. It’s been leagalized in several states now…has your marriage changed in any way as a result? I will never, ever get these people and their views! Good for you for writing this piece =)
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 1:40 pm

I am baffled by this too. I am still waiting for an intelligent, articulate reason this is bad for our country from those who oppose marriage equality. So far there has been nothing (in my opinion).

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Jack@TheJackB May 9, 2012 at 1:44 pm

I have little to no patience for most if not all of the arguments I have heard against same sex marriage.

The fear that comes from those who oppose it really throws me for a loop. What harm will come from it. If two people love each other and want to sanctify that through marriage, so what.

Legalizing gay marriage isn’t going to lead to a sudden rush to become gay nor will thousands of people decide that it is time to marry their horse/cow/sheep or dog.

I understand how men think and it would probably be much easier to be in a relationship with one, except I find the idea of being with a man sexually repulsive.

Guys are great, I love us, just not like that.

Really, I just don’t understand why people are so afraid.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 3:04 pm

You hit upon something I didn’t mention in my post, but is essential in understanding the people against marriage equality. It’s a simple, four-letter word: FEAR.

Thanks for the great post. And I agree; men are easier to live with than women!

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Major Bedhead May 9, 2012 at 1:46 pm

I’m just *fine* with gay marriage. It’s been on the books in Massachusetts for years now and I haven’t seen it have any affect on anyone. It disgusts me that states are putting discrimination into their constitutions.

Mostly, I just don’t understand why people get their knickers in such a twist over it. It’s not going to affect your life. Allowing gay people to marry will only mean that more people will get married, not that it will suddenly turn the nation into some sort of den of iniquity.

I could sputter on about this for pages, but I will refrain, except to say, yes, I’m totally for gay marriage.

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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 3:06 pm

It really is something that makes no sense–taking on such a fight over something that has no affect on your or society as a whole. If anything it potentially creates more loving homes for children to be adopted into than have any harmful affects.

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alfred lives here May 9, 2012 at 1:49 pm

Great post , love it…. and yes the bottom line is always that “love is love”…

While I understand people not being comfortable with this whole concept as is new and unknown, I point out that same-sex marriage has been legal here in Canada for almost a decade. It has not changed the world, or destroyed the country; it has just opened up an avenue of life for many people.

My husband and I got married two years ago, and it is all about love and family. Period.

Traditional marriage was women as chattel, and whites only getting married. So let’s drop that expression. If you want to protect marriage, then encourage people to get married, be faithful and (as much as possible) stay married… that is the true sanctity of marriage, it is about building a family.

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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 3:10 pm

I am so happy you stopped by to read today and leave such a great comment. I did not know it has been legal in Canada for 10 years. It’s encouraging to hear your country has not experienced a total collapse in your society as a result because in the U.S. it seems that will occur.

I almost pointed out interracial marriages were not allowed and there was as much controversy over that as well. Thanks for bringing up the argument over “traditional” marriage.

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injaynesworld May 9, 2012 at 6:43 pm

Excellent comment, my friend. It was wonderful to see Obama finally step up on this — even if Biden did need to given him a little impetus.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 8:23 pm

It looks like a win for Obama, which is great. It is a tough topic for any president in an election year so I am happy to see him speak out now, regardless of the timing politically.

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Aubrey Anne May 9, 2012 at 1:51 pm

Nice work saying what you need to say, knowing there will be backlash. It’s so very important!

I know people in all kinds of relationships, of all orientations/preferences… I’m not for or against gay marriage itself, but believe in kindness, acceptance, and the kind of love that doesn’t cheat or hurt each other. This is all anyone can ask for, no matter where they find it.

So much more to say, but not my platform. Great spark for conversation!
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 3:11 pm

So far the haters have not visited. Or maybe they just stopped by and left without comment (doubt that!).

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Erika May 9, 2012 at 2:12 pm

Beautiful! Like you, and others that have commented here, I have yet to hear a compelling argument as to why same sex marriage is awful and will bring society to its ruin. I was taught and have always believed that where there is love, God is pleased.

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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 3:12 pm

The God argument confuses me.I feel like I am up on Jesus’ teachings and there wasn’t anything about alienating or seeing people as anything but equal in the New Testament.

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Eric May 9, 2012 at 2:39 pm

The argument against that I don’t understand most is the “society will collapse” one. I just don’t get that same-sex marriage is going to destroy our civilization.

My wife is a minister and a JP and has performed a number of marriages. Some of them were same-sex marriages. She has always said that she felt more love at the same-sex marriages then she did at the hetero ones.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 3:13 pm

It’s funny you say that about Tracey’s experience Eric. I felt the wedding I recently shot was the most genuine expression of love I had witnessed at a wedding. It was truly about celebrating their love and not about orchestrating the dream wedding.

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Nicole May 9, 2012 at 2:49 pm

Although he was kidding, I think Jack hit upon a very important aspect of this: “I understand how men think and it would probably be much easier to be in a relationship with one, except I find the idea of being with a man sexually repulsive.”

There is this ridiculous belief that if you are gay you are a pervert and/or a predator. The people who are against gay marriage cannot view it as a loving relationship because they can’t/don’t see gay people as everyday people. They have this warped idea that all gay people do is skulk around looking for their next partner, have excessive sexual proclivities, and that their lives literally revolve around sex.

My ex-husband is terribly close-minded, and a homophobe, and several years ago, we got into an argument over gay marriage. I asked him if he found every single woman he sees attractive. He said, “No, of course not.” So I asked “Then what makes you think that every gay man on this planet would be after you, simply because you have the ‘right’ parts?” I then asked him how he would feel if someone told us we couldn’t get married simply because they didn’t like us. Though I didn’t change his beliefs entirely, I turned it from a sexually “frightening” idea into an illogical one.

I really think that so many of those in opposition need to understand that these marriages come from the same place that hetero marriages come from. But until they see the gay community as teachers, police officers, lawyers, writers, activists, gardeners, custodians, athletes, sisters, cousins and not just GAY PEOPLE, it’s never going to change.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 3:14 pm

You make very good arguments. My hope with the post is that I can do the same thing–swing someone from against to at least understanding their argument is flawed and illogical. As one reader left on my Facebook wall: “If you don’t like gay marriage then don’t gay marry.”

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justkeepinitrealfolks May 9, 2012 at 2:52 pm

Great post and wonderfully written. This really hits home because I live in North Carolina and stayed up late to watch the election results come in last night. I cried with my friends because we are all SO embarrassed that people of our state would vote for such a hideous, hateful, discriminatory amendment. I honestly don’t know anybody who voted for this amendment, but then again I don’t know a lot of bible thumpers. As one of my friends so eloquently said, “They are so holy-minded that they are no worldly good”.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 3:16 pm

Oh, I am so happy to have a North Carolina resident stop by to say she did not vote in favor. It’s good to know since it seems like the results were a resounding vote in favor.

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Random Girl May 9, 2012 at 2:55 pm

As someone who has been in a hetero marriage and failed, I applaud any couple that can make a commitment to be married and be successful, the parts involved are none of my concern. I have always said “family is what you make it” and it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with biological connections and even less to do with gender. Who am I to say?
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 3:17 pm

There are far too many failed and dysfunctional marriages (mine included) for us to be able to stand in the way of those who might be successful in marriage. It is all about family and what you make of it.

Thanks for stopping by!

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Deus Ex Machina May 9, 2012 at 3:21 pm

I grew up in the deep south. About as deep as one gets without falling into the Gulf of Mexico. I still live in what most consider the “Bible Belt.” Born Catholic. Baptized Baptist (so I could hang out with my friends). And to this day. To this very moment. I do not understand a single iota, nary a shred, nor even the tiniest nanonotion, of the disdain, distaste, disagreement, or flat out hatred of same-gender marriage. I don’t get it. Obviously, what most of it comes down to are Bible versus. Most of the arguments are all traced to that. When the dissidents have nothing left, when their own words fail, they quote the Bible. And that is fine. It is whatever it is. It is part of their belief system. I am assuming they are afraid that allowing same-gender marriage in some way abrogates the sanctity of their own marriage. Which is a bit disturbing that they hang the sanctity of their own marriage on the existence or non-existence of secular laws. Which brings me back to “what the hell?” Nope. I don’t get it.

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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 5:57 pm

I loved your comment. Brilliant. Thanks for visiting today.

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Britt May 9, 2012 at 4:12 pm

Great Post! I have to admit I sometimes agree with the right on economic issues, but then their social issues raise their ugly head and I am always appalled. I will never understand why some people want to label or control others private lives. It is really none of our business and marriage should be about two people who are in love and ready to make a commitment to each other period. I look forward to the day when gay people have the same rights as men and women in this country.

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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 5:57 pm

Thanks Britt! I think it marriage equality is inevitable so it would probably serve people well to breathe deep and choose another cause to get worked up over.

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StoriesAndSweetPotatoes May 9, 2012 at 4:31 pm

Beautifully written. There is so much I don’t understand about why people not only oppose gay marriage but want it written into the constitution as illegal. Do those people not treasure their own freedom? Some people devote their lives to animals rights (random example) but can we not extend the same rights to all human beings? It makes me sad.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 5:56 pm

Me too. It is disappointing the energy people spend on this.

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Roxanne May 9, 2012 at 4:48 pm

I don’t really get it, the opposition I mean. Let me hazard a guess.

I think that the people who are so opposed to same sex marriages are also the ones who are repulsed by same sex relationships (meaning same sex sex) and they believe (fear) that permitting gay marriage will make it more likely that they will have to witness, in some way, these relationships– that they may be more likely to see a couple holding hands or that they will hear same sex people refer to their partners as husband or wife. And they can’t handle it. The people who are disgusted by this don’t want the relationships to be sanctioned in any way because that may put it in their line of sight. Like interracial marriages — because they are no longer illegal interracial couples freely show affection for one another. This was not always the case. So the slippery slope is that legalizing gay marriage will do for it what legalizing interracial marriages did for those couples— blacks and whites holding hands, kissing in public on TV and movies, etc. For the people who find this possibility for gay couples repulsive, they probably feel like they have to fight it at all costs (or privately in the voting booth). All the other arguments that they make to attempt to justify their belief are afterthoughts. Their real argument really is — but it’s icky!!!!! Knowing that won’t fly, they bring out all the other arguments — which are not much better. At least saying “icky” is honest, if stupid.

Anyway, bottom line is, the more marriages, the more weddings, the more money spent on weddings, on buying and building and fixing up homes, on home furnishings and yes, divorces, including legal fees and division of wealth. Marriage is good for the economy. And for me to say that, as a survivor of a horribly failed hetero marriage, well, that’s saying something.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 5:55 pm

I didn’t bring up interracial marriages in my post, but it was something that occurred to me when writing the piece. Nothing terrible happened to this country as a result of legalizing interracial couples to marry. Nothing will this time either.

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Corey Feldman May 9, 2012 at 4:50 pm

I’m with you 100% Let consenting adults do what they want. Besides the whole idea of gender truly being binary is simply scientifically falsifiable. This country was founded by people escaping religious persecution, its sad that in a country built on freedom of religion people try and use their religious beliefs to try and control people who are doing no harm to anyone.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 5:51 pm

You make a great point Corey.

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Andy May 9, 2012 at 4:55 pm

Surprised to see not a single comment against your blog. I am for traditional marriage. Its just a morality issue. You can say well who’s morality is best? Well surely we all get to decide for ourselves but we also vote on and write laws for the culture/society as a whole. Its not that people against SSM see those people as not equal but just different. And different they can be. It is your God given free will to be gay. I wouldn’t vote to make being LGBT illegal but I can’t in good consicience vote to make SSM legal. Other examples are polygamy, or prostitution, or the legalization of drugs. “How does me doing crack affect you”? Well society got together and decided that doing drugs is wrong and bad for our culture. Agree or disagree that is what has happened and that is what peaceful/civilized countries do. The laws of the land are determined by a popular vote. Untill/unless LGBT behavior becomes more widespread/popular SSM will be illegal.

The other problem I have with SSM legalization is the institutionalization of it in our public schools. It’s un-American to teach LGBT behavior is “good or normal” in publich schools while simultaneously not allowing other points of view (other morals) to be taught or considered. This is Atheism being thrust into our schools and a violation of church and state. You say that’s crazy. I know and you sincerely mean it. But, see it from a Christian perspective. You can’t say Jesus is real and should be followed in public schools but you can say things against Him. That He is not real and should be ignored. That is unbalanced and unfair. Its using tax dollars to promote a morality, a religion called Atheism. Thanks for reading and remember I kept it positive and without hate. Hope you can reply in kind.
Sincerely,
Andy

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Corey Feldman May 9, 2012 at 5:42 pm

You can show direct evidence how using crack harms society, crimes, health cost, etc… But to people who love each other wanting to be married doesn’t harm anyone. As for it thrusting Atheism into the school is a violation church and state makes no sense.Yes the Abrahamic religions come down hard on homosexuality, but so what. You can not be an Atheism has nothing to do with LGBT rights. What you are insisting is forcing your religious views on others.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 5:49 pm

Andy,

I appreciate your comment and I applaud you for doing so respectfully. If we could respectfully disagree and discuss, there might be greater understanding, not just on this issue, but a myriad of topics.

For LGBT teens who have no choice in who they are, they really need to be in an environment that teaches tolerance. And for the children who are heterosexual, they should be raised and taught about tolerance so there will be fewer hate crimes in this world. It is teaching that it is not okay to be who you are that leads to an increase in teen suicides (high and prevalent among LGBT teens) and to these crimes.

I am a Christian, but also believe that allowing religion in the schools is a bad idea. If we were to do that, who’s religion should we choose? This country was founded on religious freedom, but at that time we didn’t have Hindi, Christian, Muslim, and Jewish faith in our country. Mormonism wasn’t formed. Several sects of Protestant faith did not exist at that time. Would you be happy with religion in the schools if it was not your faith?

For those whose faith includes Jesus, no one is teaching He should be ignored. It is simply to be taught at home and in the church because there are others who worship in a faith that does not include Jesus.

Thank you again for taking the time to visit and comment intelligently and respectfully.

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my honest answer May 9, 2012 at 5:20 pm

I’m with you. There’s just no reason to interfere with two people in love. Interfere with people in hate – go and volunteer in Syria or something instead.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 5:49 pm

What a great idea! You always have good ideas.

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injaynesworld May 9, 2012 at 6:46 pm

Never apologize in advance for voicing your opinion on your own blog. As a writer, if you’re not pissing off someone, you’re not doing your job. I agree with you wholeheartedly and was happy to see the President stop making such a damn fool of himself with his coy bullshit responses and just step up on this one finally! It matters when the leader of the free world declares equal rights for all.

It must suck to be a “hater” today. :)
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 9, 2012 at 8:26 pm

Thanks for the advice on writing. It is my space so you are right; I should not apologize!

it’s particularly encouraging for the President to speak up today–the day after the North Carolina vote.

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Tai Fung May 9, 2012 at 8:32 pm

I don’t have a “dissenting” opinion on this, but I do have a slightly differing one. I think Government should get out of the marriage business, and simply issue the same civil license to couples, whether gay or straight. Two reasons:

1. For the most part, on a state-by-state basis with referendums, people tend to vote against marriage equality.

2. Then, in most (all?) cases, the anti-gay marriage forces lose in Court on Equal Protection grounds.

This seems all a lot of smoke to me. If Government would simply issue Civil Union licenses, they could still track couples for tax purposes, child custody, contracts, etc. But the couples themselves, whether gay or straight, could seek to have the Union performed under the auspices of a religious marriage, or a civil one. Nothing would force couples to submit to a religious marriage, or a secular one.

I blogged about it (found via my Twitter and About pages), but I feel cheesy plugging it here. It’s just my take on the issue, which I think is a middle ground. It’s definitely gay-marriage friendly. It’s just not very “Government-friendly.”

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Naked Girl in a Dress May 14, 2012 at 12:53 pm

You have added to the dialogue. Thank you for your insight. I hope you will come back and drop a link to your writing.

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Andy May 9, 2012 at 9:34 pm

NGIAD,
I agree with you on tolerance. A Homosexual’s sin is exactly equal to mine.

I don’t think these kids are “born this way”. But, that is irrelevant. If we find a gene that makes me a cleptomaniac does that excuse my stealing? Of course not. I’m hetero and have gone years without sex. It’s a choice anyone can make.

As to religion in schools: I think you missed my point. Teaching LGBT is normal is religion in schools. We either need to present all faiths (not my preference) in school or none. LGBT is closely tied to Atheism. Everyone worships something. Atheist just put themselves in that spot. I think most people don’t realize that we are pushing Atheism in schools. My preference is that we teach academics in school ( let parrents teach faith and morals) and restore our country to academic superiority.

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Kristin May 10, 2012 at 5:13 am

Two people wanting to get married is rooted in love. I don’t think stealing is.

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Naked Girl in a Dress May 14, 2012 at 12:54 pm

Great point. Neither is using illegal drugs (another analogy used).

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Ben May 10, 2012 at 2:19 am

I’d probably be for same-sex marriage even if I weren’t gay. The arguments I’ve heard against based in scriptural interpretation I disregard: not all churches hold to those. By that standard, a law banning interfaith marriage would be logical.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 14, 2012 at 12:53 pm

There really are only weak arguments against marriage equality. I agree with you Ben.

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Liz May 10, 2012 at 5:31 am

How does me doing crack affect you”? Well society got together and decided that doing drugs is wrong and bad for our culture”.

Hi Andy, I really appreciate that your comment was ‘positive’ and without hate, however, I sit here, at my desk, and feel my heart sinking somewhat. Your suggestion that drugs, polygamy and prostitution are somehow a legitimate comparison to homosexuality is beyond me. Do you really believe that two people, of the same-sex, who love each other dearly and want to make a commitment to each other, in front of their family and friends, is akin to crack, and somehow ‘wrong and bad for our culture’? Can you be more specific as to what exactly makes SSM wrong and bad for our culture?

And as for the institutionalising in public schools? Institutionalising? Good and normal behaviour? I appreciate things may be a little different over here in the UK re schooling etc, however, if we put religion to one side for the moment, is it somehow a bad thing to inform/teach children about the LGBT community? My nephew and niece are 14 and 10 respectively, and they have been raised in an environment in which they believe that EVERYONE is equal, irrelevant of their sexuality. Outside the square, four walls of school, there is a rich tapestry of life out there, awaiting these children, and I feel they should be encouraged to learn about all aspects of society and culture. Teaching children about SSM (amongst other things), is not ‘institutionalising’, it’s creating a channel of open communication, free from judgement and contempt.

I am gay, and in a happy, loving and healthy relationship with my partner. I believe that I have a lot to offer society and culture; such as raising money for charities, as well as volunteering to help those less fortunate.

I would really appreciate a reply from you, Andy, so that I can fully understand your perspective a little more, in particular, based on the comments I have outlined above.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 14, 2012 at 12:54 pm

Well said Liz. Thank you for taking the time to comment and for promoting the post on Facebook.

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Andy Rodger May 15, 2012 at 12:35 pm

Liz,
Sorry it has taken so long for me to reply. I was traveling all last week.
Clarification:
I don’t think that smoking crack is akin to being gay! I use that comparison, especially with the kleptomania, as an example where society has limited our “freedoms” or “rights”. Polygamy on the other hand is absolutely akin to SSM. All the arguments that apply to SSM also support polygamy. “Its my right to have multiple wives/husbands.” “Who are you to say that 3 people can form a loving family?” ect…
To answer your first question: I believe that God’s ways are best and that if we follow that plan then there will be rewards and if we don’t there will be consequences. I don’t expect/need others to agree, its just what I believe. And for me to endorse or vote for or support SSM is offensive to my God and damaging to the relationship that I have with Him. So, I can’t do it. I also think that it is bad for our culture. God said don’t do it. For me its that simple. The entire Old Testament is full of Israel violating God’s commandments, bad things happen to them, they get right with God, good things happen to them. The cycle repeats over and over. New king new rules new direction. Bad king, bad direction. Good king good direction and the nation grows and has peace and economic prosperity.

Also, segway into your next paragraph, taking the stance that I do or believing as I do does not mean that I don’t thing that LGBT people are equal. Certainly everyone is equal in the eyes of God. That is what Jesus teaches us throughout His life. We have to be able to separate people from their behavior. You are a person first. LGBT people just have a different flavor of sin. We all have are favorites. Here in CA the government has decided that public schools should teach that LGBT is good natural and normal, citing that animals are also homosexual. We have done so without the approval of the general population. Here we have one person (Governor Jerry Brown) who has decided for an entire culture that we will teach LGBT is good, natural, and normal. This is irresponsible. We ignore all the harmful statistics about this behavior and tell our kids its “OK”. Why don’t we tell our kids the truth? Or even better just let parents tells kids about sexuality? (I find myself off topic here.) Liz, you absolutely have a lot to offer society. I can tell by reading your post you are a sincere and kind person. We could use more of those in this world.

Remember, being good is not what makes a person at peace with God. No one is “good” enough. Being Christian is actually admitting that you are not “good”. That you need a savior because of that. God sent his Son for exactly that reason. If we didn’t need a savior He wouldn’t have sent Him to “Seek and to save that which is lost” Our culture (on a national or even global basis) can either reject Him or accept Him. You don’t have to decide today but you do have to decide what to do with Him.

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Jonah Gibson May 10, 2012 at 11:32 am

Well, plenty of hate in here, Paul, starting with my ‘god thingy doesn’t exist.’ My own personal ‘God Thingy’ is fully developed, and yet I still support gay rights in all its iterations. Andy did a credible job of laying out the conservative Christian perspective. He and I disagree on a few key points, but I understand where he’s coming from. You on the other hand did an even better job of demonstrating the kind of unreasoned intolerance of Christians and other religious faithful that make them insular and fearful.
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 14, 2012 at 12:55 pm

Thanks for your respectful response Jonah.

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win back your ex May 11, 2012 at 9:44 am

Girls and boys have such different expectations of love and marriage from a young age that there is bound to be trouble when the two worlds meet. He cannot remember the date when you first met or kissed and she is all about celebrating the first everything and the month anniversaries until it is firmly ingrained in his mind.

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Nicole May 14, 2012 at 1:38 pm

I, too, understand what you’re trying to say, Andy, and because you are seemingly the only voice here who is willing to discuss the opposing side and can do so articulately, maybe you can shed some insight into the reality of the argument against SSM. But I think some lines are getting blurred:

1. Equating homosexuality to any crime–crack smoking, stealing (cleptomania) isn’t a logical metaphor. So, if we go back to your original comment about it’s “impact” on society and what we decide as a society is good for us, can you explain what it is about SSM that is harmful to us as a society? And, given what we said about keeping faith at home, a SECULAR society?

2. Tolerance doesn’t necessarily mean that we are “teaching LGBT is normal”. Tolerance, by definition, is “sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one’s own.” Why can’t it be acceptable to just ACKNOWLEDGE that other types of lifestyles/preferences exist? We can absolutely have those discussions without “promoting” anything in one direction or the other.

3. It would be every teacher’s DREAM to strictly teach academia in schools. LOL. But let’s be realistic–kids spend 7-8 hours A DAY in school. There has to be some way to keep order, and teach right and wrong, because that’s part of learning also. Tolerance, if taught properly, could alleviate concerns on both sides: My kids are being taught LGBT is normal/my kids are being taught that anything outside of THEIR box is wrong… Tolerance might stop bullying. Tolerance might actually make the learning experience in schools even better (and anything that can help our education system right now would be welcomed!).

So, the question remains: What are the secular, social arguments against SSM, and if the answer is “it’s bad for society” then my next question is “why”?
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 15, 2012 at 9:26 am

Thank you for the well thought out response Nicole. It added significantly to the dialogue related to marriage equality.

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Andy Rodger May 15, 2012 at 12:36 pm

Nicole,
I think I just answered your question by replying to Liz. If not, please ask again.

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Classic NYer May 17, 2012 at 2:24 pm

I grew up Christian. I grew up believing that homosexuality is against God’s will. I also grew up believing that it’s not up to Christianity to dictate the morality of the government (Jesus was not a political figure). And that only God is the final judge, not the people. And that it’s only up to the people to “let the wheat and the tares grow together” (Matt 13:30) until God himself separates what’s right from what’s wrong.

I’m not Christian anymore, but sometimes Christianity makes sense.

If only the Christians would read the f-ing bible sometimes…
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Naked Girl in a Dress May 17, 2012 at 7:27 pm

I love when you visit and comment. Thank you for adding to this discussion.

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Kimberly July 5, 2012 at 6:17 pm

I can’t understand them either. And most of the time they tout their “Christian” values. Jesus Christ would not have stood in the way of love, light and commitment. It just doesn’t fit with who he is.
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